The conclusive thread to current world affairs as of 5/31/20 that nobody asked for:

[Punkin]

So over the past few days in Novastorm we've been very divided about the state of American politics. Namely, our takes on racism in America & where the issue with police brutality lies. Here is a post articulating every point I have to make regarding the matter & where EXACTLY the issue lies. Since a post like this would get flooded in a sea of scarecrow arguments, here it is:

First let's establish one single fact. The United State of America is FOUNDED upon racism. Historically, black people have been enslaved, raped, tortured, discriminated against, & killed en masse in the US. Not the Japanese, not the Mexicans, not the Swedish, etc; the Black Americans. America was founded almost entirely on the backs of Black Americans & if you have even one ounce of doubt about that stop reading this post this instant. This is well documented & something you learn in Middle School & if you deny that then you are completely helpless.

When we go back to any civilization in World History we see that there are people at the bottom of a social hierarchy & those at the top. American History sees Black Americans at the very bottom -- the lowest of the low. This has been true for all of American History up to even now for one single reason.

The answer? Racism. Let's go back to the emancipation of Black people. When we revisit a post-Civil War America & after the Industrial Revolution, we see Black people establishing lives as American citizens in poor areas because they needed to make end's meet in our "free world". Despite newfound freedoms, even housing was segregated & Black Americans couldn't live in integrated areas to live a modern lifestyle just like any other American at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_United_States

It's a very simple concept, if you are socialized by your family to be talented in things that don't often lead to high-paying jobs, then you continue living your life exactly how it is, & if your family was socialized that way they live as they are. Black culture & interests are generally laid upon a foundation of pipe dreams & rich culture of subcategories of pre-existing hobbies & interests that, while full of meaning & investment are not what often leads to being on top in society. You can imagine what those are, but those are NOT limited to black people & not inherent. 

Socialization aside, now that I've briefly explained why Black Americans are inherently predisposed to a life of poverty, we can also visit some statistics on the matter of mass incarceration which correlates to poverty. Let's take a look at some facts here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States
73% of the U.S population is white. 
https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/united-states/quick-facts/all-states/black-population-percentage#map
Overall, the black population accounts for roughly 13%.

That being said, let's take a look at who is being put in jail:
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/incarceration-rates-by-race-ethnicity-and-gender-in-the-u-s.html
Nearly 40% of the United States' prison population is black. 

When looking at this, you need to take in that 58% is White & Hispanic. So despite the Black population making up ~13% of our overall population, when we make convictions in a court of law, over 40% of those people are Black. So the reason that this is a Black issue & not inherently an "all people issue" is because of just how much this impacts Black people instead of any other race/ethnicity. 

The issue is not that people are being incarcerated, it's that it's disproportionately Black people. The issue is not "Police brutality happens" even though that is a problem, it's that "about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police." (https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793) The issue is that significantly, more than anyone else these issues affect Black people in particular. The reason this happens is because our society is grounded as a system where Black people are predisposed to being poor, being involved with crime, not having opportunities for education, & being profiled. 

So when we say 'All Lives Matter' do we really dig into the meat of this issue? Do we really tell the whole story by saying it affects everyone?

[Tamicat]

Alright well I think I got an issue with a few things you say here.

Starting with the USA itself, I personally I believe the USA has a bad history with racism (see manifest destiny and slavery) but I don't believe it was founded on it. It was actually founded by a group of people who were essentially the unwanted peasants of their old home country. Most were desperate poor people with no hope of rising to anything themselves presented with the opportunity for wealth and more importantly LAND. Many died following this dream. Ironically I don't think that's too different from the situation that many poor black communities are in at current day.

Racism does exist and it was bad, I don't think nova has any issue admitting that. Nor does it have an issue admitting it STILL exists. - but let's take a look at this 13% of the population create 40% of the crime statistic.

I think this statistic is a problem to be used in an argument because you hear it all the time from both sides as if it's some checkmate gotcha move. Someone who is against black lives matter will use these same statistics to validate their own argument that black people DO commit more crime and create more problems. Someone like you would obviously use the same stats to claim the opposite which is that "Black people are no different but get profiled by racist police more often"

Profiling definitely exists but this statistic and these links are unhelpful to the discussion every time I see them.

"All lives matter" arguments in general are really stupid. It should go without saying all lives matter and that shouldn't be a controversial statement. The problem is that many people bring up "all lives matter" when speaking about black lives matter - This creates a situation where both sides start assuming other things about the other. The fact is "all lives matter" isn't really an argument, it's a vague statement. You can try and apply good intentions to it and say people who say it also believe black lives matter OR you can apply bad intentions to it.

You shouldn't debate statements left up to interpretation. If someone wants to say "all lives matter" they should be very clear WHY they are saying this and how it's relevant. If they are not clear then there's nothing to argue with and you're being an idiot if you think it's racist or anti-black.

EDIT: If you do want to say it's racist you better be very clear on why or how it's racist. You are making an accusation of the other party when they haven't really shown much about their own beliefs or elaborated on them at this point.

[Punkin]

If you want to argue about the semantics of how I intend to use the statistic, then I would argue that my "narrative" is much more founded in reality than the idea that Black people ARE bad & DO commit crimes. My "belief" is at least founded in over 100 years of stigma & scrutiny. 

"[the principle that] a black citizen and a white citizen really do have equal rights under the laws. Black citizens don't believe it. They shouldn't believe it. It's not true that they have equal rights under the laws. It's not true that they have the same assumptions of innocence. It's not true that they have the same assumptions of peaceful countenance." https://www.vox.com/michael-brown-shooting-ferguson-mo/2014/8/19/6031759/ferguson-history-riots-police-brutality-civil-rights

There is a long history of racist policing & while we can say "it's against the law for police to discriminate now -- what do you want people do to??" the fact still remains that it STILL happens & it STILL disproportionately affects Black people. People benefit from this mode of societal autonomy & that much became clear during the COVID-19 lockdown when our minimum wage workforce was highlighted as essential.

The idea that Black people are free or equal is not true & the proof is in the pudding. I'm not using any kind of unrelated narrative -- it's the truth.

[Tamicat]

I don't think it's just semantics. It's a very commonly used stat used by both sides and it falls into logical fallacy territory or arguing in bad faith. (see jontron)

Profiling disproportionately happens to basically every minority I think that's not even really an argument.

That said I would firmly disagree they are not as free or equal as other races. There are many black people with more money who obviously do just fine. I think it's less about racism in our modern age and more about economic differences.

It's not racist to say that black people as a community are more likely to sell drugs or join a gang because of low income. I could say they commit more crime and use that stupid statistic to "prove" it but I don't think that's fair or really shows anything.

We should be looking at solutions to fix income disparity in areas segregated from the rest rather than being worried about how many white people want to admit racism exists as if that does anything. At least in my opinion that would be a good place to start.

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