A Diplomatic Thread

[Punkin]

There's only one way to start off this thread. That is by admitting to you all that I have made a very immature mistake. Months ago, I thought I was doing the right thing by coming out about something deeply personal & that affected me greatly. However, in doing that, my judgment of the situation was skewed by my heightened emotions & I presented a much more grim picture of reality than what was actually there. 

I'm here to say that Pitou is not a monster. All of what I said about what happened was true, but I realize now that even though I was very hurt by the situation, I greatly hyperbolized the intensity of it & in turn presented a picture of Neferpitou that was not his entire character. 

What proceeded that day can't really be undone, but I can learn from my mistakes & I've come to accept that my judgment was skewed. 

After having discussions with both Pitou & Mado, Mado has agreed to try & understand the perspective of people who feel he has wrongly accused or affected. Let me be the first to say; nobody hates Mado. We all want particular things out of Novastorm, & Mado, as owner, has say over all of it. We all also want to be friends!! Part of the pact of friendship is learning from taking value in the thoughts & beliefs of others. 

As your friend, Mado, I also want to make clear once again that there was a time I was very inconsiderate & ignorant. An entire era of me trying to egg you on into doing things like finding a new job without knowing anything about your circumstances. I'm sorry for that. I felt very strongly about the subject & believed in only what I had to say about it without considering that you have a whole life & set of circumstances I just don't know about or have any say in influencing. I can't undo the things I said to you or did; I can only learn & take from the experience that I was wrong & be better.

Not that I speak with total confidence in what everybody thinks, but people have made very clear amongst themselves in Lunastorm that they feel like you've made them feel out of place in one way or another. Over the past 6 months, Mado, you've become increasingly hostile towards people like Charizardf1, Mario, Talon, & AD because their opinions fall into a category that you deem to be that of a Twitter extremist, or that they blindly fall into favor of whatever one says. 

When you say that, it really dehumanizes them & you create the narrative that they aren't people who are capable of thoughts & feelings. There's countless examples of one of a few people in Nova saying something totally discriminatory that went under the radar because being upset by it, in your opinion is being a "snowflake". People just visiting a Pokemon chat don't deserve to be capitalized on by their circumstances they cannot control. Their race, gender, age, disability status, etc. Please, for the sake of a more healthy & friendly environment that your friends DESERVE, be less tolerant of comments & backstabs like these from EVERYONE.

Truly, the main issue people have taken up with you is how you enable people to say or do inflammatory things because of whatever reason you may find they had to do it. Kris saying he wish I had gotten into a motorcycle accident, or saying autistic is all Talon will ever be are examples of things you never directly condemned, but only said anything about because it made you look like it's what you believed too. Tam lashing out at AD because he's friends with Zero is another example of something completely out of pocket that went totally unaccounted for by you that had even been defended as I, & a couple others recollect. 

Tam hasn't been nearly as volatile as she used to be, & in a lot of instances she's been the target of unjustified & uncalled for bickering. That being said, there's a largely unanswered trend of her creating narratives about certain people who she hasn't even attempted to reason with that lead to very disruptive & toxic arguments that have no resolution. This often makes people who have nothing to do with anything the target of unfair criticism & just plain bickering.

There's my two cents on the matter, but I'll ask others to make forums posts & hopefully you consider their opinions too

[Tamicat]

A diplomatic thread where you blame everyone else and shrug off the harm you've done.

The reason I don't like AD isn't because he's friends with Zero(though that doesn't help) - It's because he's a two faced shady person that operates in private chats while taking a holier than thou attitude. He just kinda pisses me off and the way he chooses to act so disingenuously while pretending he's a progressive mature person. Or that is someone who holds his friends accountable for anything is an absolute joke. You think Zero is even a tiny bit sorry for what he did? I doubt it considering how he continues to act even up to current day.

You talk about how I shouldn't blame the victim(you) but you also defend people like Zero. You're such a hypocrite, nothing you do or say has any integrity behind it and you'll flip flop on it a month later anyway.

Yiffy never "groomed" you any more than he did me. You think I should be on your side because you wanted to cancel yiffy but you've never been on my side and often even helped people stalk and harass me because you want to give everyone a second chance. It's not that I hate you just because of who you choose to be friends with but rather it's because you're a god damn liability because you will basically turn on anyone or do things at even your closest friends expenses if it benefits you for a moment.

You ever consider maybe mado isn't just some anti-twitter drama extremist? He's accepted many people he disagrees with even if he often doesn't see eye to eye other's opinions and I'd think you'd know this but like everything you say it's got some manipulative blame everyone else undertone. Half the reason Nova is relaxed now is because some of you aren't here to keep making problems because you're bored or think that Nova needs drama to thrive.

You're a trans male to male crazy person that makes anyone with actual gender dysphoria look bad with some completely fucked up views now. So from one SJW to another go fuck yourself Spin. There was a time where I thought you were my best friend but I don't think it's even kinda possible to fix now.
You even make me feel guilty for what happened with Yiffy like it was my fault. Half the dumb shit and problems you make is because you're upset with me and just really dishonest about it.

You're so fake that I just never want to interact with you again.

The past cannot be forgotten : /

[Mado]

I’m glad you’ve changed your mind about how you view Neferpitou. It wasn’t pleasant to see you take such an extreme stance with him given the history you know of him with the people of Nova, but as you now don’t believe such things I think we can leave that behind us entirely.
 
I also won’t bear a grudge against you for what you said about my semi-NEET state in the past few months or year. However, I have a bit of a problem when it comes to your general approach towards these things. Throughout the years you’ve stayed on Nova you’ve given me conflicting signs about what you want to be as a person. You have this very suspicious cycle of behaving in an unreasonable manner then reverting to hoping to evolve and better your mistakes. I really don’t know if I can just have your word for it when you say you had a change of heart about these things, not to be prideful or because I’m any position to lay judgement on you but because you’ve gone back on what you said a lot of times and gone back to having a hostile almost snobbish approach towards things after being subjected to enough pressure and negativity. I think those times really are what’s going to test your metal so when that happens again, and hopefully it never does, I’ll see if you really mean all you said here.
 
Now this is the part where I admit to what I’m doing wrong and come transparent about how I feel. When I group people together as “Twitter drones” it’s a huge exaggeration on my part, almost like some kind of automatic defense mechanism, it’s not right for me to say that about people as if they’re operating as some sort of hivemind. The increasing pressure on me in my recent life has ruined my ability to be tolerant and patient with opposing views, especially when I believe they’re harming other individuals by being so, but it’s a rather hostile and uncivilized approach to this so I’ll apologize for that much.
 
That however also didn’t come without a reason, the people you’ve mentioned use a pretty dismissive and rude way to deal with different views, much more so when it comes to controversial subjects like something ethical and political. With such extreme statements on their part I and many others become forced to respond in a manner of equal hostility and dismissiveness, because if the debate is going to amount to nothing one’s gotta at least not make it seem like they’re in agreement with the people who’re “dehumanizing” them, in your own words. It’s not the right way to deal with it, not justifiable by any means but the other side is not completely innocent and you’d be fair to not ignore that fact. I shouldn’t be dehumanized so aggressively for giving my opinion on BLM, circumcision, abortion, transgender people and things of that nature.
 
I’ve never tolerated discriminatory comments of any kind, from the smallest things like bullying someone for not being the brightest or the fastest thinker to downright awful things like actual racism or approval of violence against a certain group or category of people.
 
The reason I’m so headstrong on allowing racial slurs is not because I approve of racism, it’s more in protest against ideologies with contradicting beliefs and actions. As person you who does not approve of discrimination you should not be one to make an individual the target of your sarcasm and mockery, you should also not be judging people so quickly based on their belief on a certain controversial subject or even a less sensitive one that’s social or the like. If you make fun of people who like a certain form of media or fiction, people on the autism spectrum or people who don’t quite have their life together then claim to want justice for a certain race or ethnicity, that looks insincere to me and I’m not going to rally behind you blindly, if you convince me that you’re a good person I’ll be able to acknowledge that you mean well and work with you to stop hatred of all kinds. Otherwise I’m strongly opposed to insincere censorship and control.
 
When I look at problems between people in Nova, I don’t view them in a vacuum, I take care to consider people’s history, overall character and what led them to have the attitude they have now. That includes, you, Tam, Char, Talon as well as Chris. Chris is undeniably a very hostile person when someone gets on his bad side or displays a behavior he deems unacceptable, I don’t approve of or tolerate his aggressive approach to this and have never claimed that he was right to say what he says about you and others. However when it comes to me calling out Talon, Char and whoever but not Chris, it’s not without a reason and it’s not because he’s taking my side. It’s because I know he’s acting in protest to what’s being done, even if it’s over the top, and doesn’t have ill intentions. He’s angered and acting out of his reason because of that. Talon on the other hand often proclaims that he’s not invested in Nova much (which is a whole debate for itself given how he gives different answers about that thing), often times he’d say things like “why do you take this seriously?” or “lmao” at things that people are genuinely hurting at, I should not be blamed when a person gives the impression that he wants to cause mischief because he couldn’t care much about how invested people aside from himself are, I should have the right to think their judgement in matters that are serious is lousy and unreliable until he fixes his attitude towards this kind of things. He and Chris are doing different things although it seems the same on the surface, and for the record both has been my friends for the same number of years and I have no reason to prefer one over the other. I’m just acting in accord to what I believe to be their intentions behind what they say and I have to prioritize facing off with Talon over doing that with Chris because Talon’s approach spreads more malice and causes more harm, when all’s settled when it comes to that or at least temporarily I could turn to Chris and talk to him about how he’s being needlessly vulgar and aggressive.
 
Banning is not the solution I look at first and it takes a person to ridicule my requests as a moderator and being uncooperative for a while for me to take that step and ban them for a short or long time. Talon has been banned many times over not by me but by the other moderators in Nova for this thing. I wasn’t being unfair to him. Chris listened to my request and stopped what he’s doing after a short amount of tries.
 
And just the same when it comes to Tam, I have to take into consideration the life she’s lived in general and on chatango that made her the person she is. It’s something you cannot ignore if you’re trying to be completely fair, Nova doesn’t operate on some kinda court law, we’re a group of friends trying to understand each other and help each other overcome our weaknesses, I’ve heard you guys preach that a few times and I think it’s applicable to the likes of Tam. Her mental state as well as the bullying she’s been subjected to in various instances could very well be what made her a not very trusting and forgiving person when it comes to people who hurt her. It’s unfair to expect her to just pull herself together without any kind of support or patience. It’s not special treatment, this kind of thing is needed if we don’t want to tear our community apart, tolerance goes a long way. I don’t know if you guys remember but I’ve given something to similar to each of you in the times you were having it rough and started acting in such a way that goes against your usual happy nature.
 
I don’t want Nova to be a courtroom, I don't want to hold you guys accountable and responsible for things as if you were criminals. I want to be able to talk to you closely and informally, a heart to heart conversation of sincerity and understanding. There’s instances in which a firm disciplinary action is in order but I strongly believe against using cold cut rules for that kind of thing. IThat’s not what made people like Nova and it’ll never work for us.
 
I don’t want to come off as arrogant or too prideful to reach out for handshake but I’ve been hurt many times because of how some of you turn colors on me and until I’ve felt genuine incentive from you to be honest and friendly again I think I’ll continue to keep my guard up.
 
I appreciate taking the time to discuss this with me though.

[Punkin]

undeniably things have been said to Tam, Kris, & yourself that were uncalled for. Like the time I had made fun of Kris' sentience over his opinion on the Pitou drama (I know that sounds sarcastic)

I guess somewhere along the line I saw you all as exceptions to the rule, but you're my friends & that's unacceptable no matter what. 

That really just brings me back to what I was trying to persuade you of though; which is us all finding it unacceptable to say or do these kinds of things & snowballing into what it's become now instead of using rules to establish what kind of environment Novastorm is. People can be better versions of themselves without having to endure verbal nuclear warfare on Chatango lol

Everybody in Novastorm deserves to feel welcome & accepted, don't you think? Isn't it too late for that when we allow others to be hateful? To discriminate? Why should it be tolerated at all? On the topic of "real racism", Mado, though it's not a huge gripe, I'm sure you & others could understand if I explain briefly why things like being ironically racist is just racist

To you it may seem like just political correctness, but consider the reality of daily life as a black person or targeted minority in general & the extensive history of racism affecting the way people think, behave, speak, & take action. How often do you hear "jokes" about the skin color or stereotypes of someone who isn't a minority? Not very often at all & that's because discrimination is almost always against minorities. So jokes about minorities that aren't even funny anyways not only are just plain discriminatory, but they're immature & inconsiderate. 

^^ Again not the biggest issue people have but certainly something to be considerate of just for the sake of maturity & ensuring that people feel welcome & not like an outlier because they don't think jokes about black people or autistic people are funny

[Mado]

Well, we’ve established that the aggression isn’t coming from one side for a start so that’s nice.
 
Maturity will not be brought forth by suddenly placing some list of rules in place. I long for nothing more than for everyone to not have to use vulgar and not talk about any harmful subject or drama, censorship will not be the means of achieving that more than all of us agreeing to be above that. As long as trolling remains in people’s minds they’ll find a way to be lowkey about it in a way that doesn’t violate the rules or makes the rules look bad or too strict. I don’t think that’s ever been what Nova’s about, there’s no fake evolution here only actual progress.
 
I won’t die for disallowing a slur of any kind that hurts the concerned people’s feelings but once again I will fight blind censorship, when you’ve all proven to me that you’ve gotten mature enough to care about one other feelings and not inflict emotional harm under the impression that bullying is only a fun pastime thing I’ll believe in your ideals and truly accept that you’re trying to fight discriminatory ideas and not just censoring things for your own personal convenience without all the others or rallying behind some kind of political front .
 
That detail shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things but if you have more to say about the more specific issues I’m all ears, or maybe eyes in this case.

[Punkin]

A diplomatic thread where you blame everyone else and shrug off the harm you've done.

The reason I don't like AD isn't because he's friends with Zero(though that doesn't help) - It's because he's a two faced shady person that operates in private chats while taking a holier than thou attitude. He just kinda pisses me off and the way he chooses to act so disingenuously while pretending he's a progressive mature person. Or that is someone who holds his friends accountable for anything is an absolute joke. You think Zero is even a tiny bit sorry for what he did? I doubt it considering how he continues to act even up to current day.

You talk about how I shouldn't blame the victim(you) but you also defend people like Zero. You're such a hypocrite, nothing you do or say has any integrity behind it and you'll flip flop on it a month later anyway.

Yiffy never "groomed" you any more than he did me. You think I should be on your side because you wanted to cancel yiffy but you've never been on my side and often even helped people stalk and harass me because you want to give everyone a second chance. It's not that I hate you just because of who you choose to be friends with but rather it's because you're a god damn liability because you will basically turn on anyone or do things at even your closest friends expenses if it benefits you for a moment.

You ever consider maybe mado isn't just some anti-twitter drama extremist? He's accepted many people he disagrees with even if he often doesn't see eye to eye other's opinions and I'd think you'd know this but like everything you say it's got some manipulative blame everyone else undertone. Half the reason Nova is relaxed now is because some of you aren't here to keep making problems because you're bored or think that Nova needs drama to thrive.

You're a trans male to male crazy person that makes anyone with actual gender dysphoria look bad with some completely fucked up views now. So from one SJW to another go fuck yourself Spin. There was a time where I thought you were my best friend but I don't think it's even kinda possible to fix now.
You even make me feel guilty for what happened with Yiffy like it was my fault. Half the dumb shit and problems you make is because you're upset with me and just really dishonest about it.

You're so fake that I just never want to interact with you again.

The past cannot be forgotten : /

It's a really hard pill to swallow, but it's true that I say a lot of things I don't end up following through with. Tam you & I just don't speak enough for you to know me & say with confidence what my experiences with dysphoria are. This idea people have that I'm now starting HRT because of you is completely false. Since I was in grade school I've always had female idols & my gender expression has always leaned that way. The way people express their gender & their actual identity are different though & though I like to look a certain way, my identity is still male mostly. You aren't the trans person police dictates what people experience. 

You haven't known Pitou for as long as I have & by the time you met him you were already 19 years old, Tam AT LEAST. That being said, I'm once again going to state that my heightened emotions really skewed my view on the seriousness of what I shared with you all months ago. That does not make what happened between Pitou & myself okay, but I've come to realize that I handled it wrong & today I made that as clear as possible.

Tam you say a lot of things about me that are a stretch of reality. I don't turn on people, I don't manipulate people for "advantage", & I don't blame everyone else. You're never going to have answers to anything when you just generalize & create end-all narratives like this. Take a better look at what you're talking about & please consider that I am a person with experiences who is capable of thought

(Edit: The same way Pitou is not a monster pervert predator, I'm not a manipulative disingenuous "effeminate weirdo". Did you ever think about that?)

(Also edit: Hi Tam!! x3)

[Punkin]

Well, we’ve established that the aggression isn’t coming from one side for a start so that’s nice.
 
Maturity will not be brought forth by suddenly placing some list of rules in place. I long for nothing more than for everyone to not have to use vulgar and not talk about any harmful subject or drama, censorship will not be the means of achieving that more than all of us agreeing to be above that. As long as trolling remains in people’s minds they’ll find a way to be lowkey about it in a way that doesn’t violate the rules or makes the rules look bad or too strict. I don’t think that’s ever been what Nova’s about, there’s no fake evolution here only actual progress.
 
I won’t die for disallowing a slur of any kind that hurts the concerned people’s feelings but once again I will fight blind censorship, when you’ve all proven to me that you’ve gotten mature enough to care about one other feelings and not inflict emotional harm under the impression that bullying is only a fun pastime thing I’ll believe in your ideals and truly accept that you’re trying to fight discriminatory ideas and not just censoring things for your own personal convenience without all the others or rallying behind some kind of political front .
 
That detail shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things but if you have more to say about the more specific issues I’m all ears, or maybe eyes in this case.

Mado why is "censorship" so wrong? It's wrong when it's simply people with disagreeing viewpoints, but should people in what you call your friend group be subject to hateful & discriminatory comments ever? You as the moderator need to establish that it either IS or it is NOT okay to say or do certain things to somebody based on things they cannot control. Under no circumstances is it acceptable to call someone a "tranny" -- even if you disagree with that person or they act belligerently, you just used language that not only chips away at respect for yourself, but is hostile to people who have done absolutely nothing to you. If you respect people all of races, religions, sex, gender, & age, you would respect that discriminatory language is just plain unacceptable.

Can I tell you something? I was totally embarrassed just last week. Someone I invited to our server was looking at a conversation I had with Char about women & Char used the word "females" in a derogatory way & she was actually upset that someone would talk about women like that. At first I tried to defend Char's use of the word because he genuinely didn't mean to upset anyone, but at the end of the day we both concluded that it's just not okay. It can be very embarrassing when you already consider yourself a considerate person to hear from someone that you said something that upset them, but even if you didn't mean it, you can make that clear & still make an effort to do better by them.

This idea you have about no progress being made in doing something as simple as not tolerating discrimination is unfounded in my opinion & I think you should at least try the same way I've carried this out. You don't have to rule with a stone cold iron fist to point it out when people are being shitheads. You don't have to stop being having a normal conversation to say that they're saying something offensive; you have the wrong idea about what I'm suggesting.

It's about making sure that if people escalate arguments, it doesn't become personal to the point where somebody is being attacked for their race, disability, or age. Everybody deserves to be welcomed & not judged by those things

[Mado]

Well, we’ve established that the aggression isn’t coming from one side for a start so that’s nice.
 
Maturity will not be brought forth by suddenly placing some list of rules in place. I long for nothing more than for everyone to not have to use vulgar and not talk about any harmful subject or drama, censorship will not be the means of achieving that more than all of us agreeing to be above that. As long as trolling remains in people’s minds they’ll find a way to be lowkey about it in a way that doesn’t violate the rules or makes the rules look bad or too strict. I don’t think that’s ever been what Nova’s about, there’s no fake evolution here only actual progress.
 
I won’t die for disallowing a slur of any kind that hurts the concerned people’s feelings but once again I will fight blind censorship, when you’ve all proven to me that you’ve gotten mature enough to care about one other feelings and not inflict emotional harm under the impression that bullying is only a fun pastime thing I’ll believe in your ideals and truly accept that you’re trying to fight discriminatory ideas and not just censoring things for your own personal convenience without all the others or rallying behind some kind of political front .
 
That detail shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things but if you have more to say about the more specific issues I’m all ears, or maybe eyes in this case.

Mado why is "censorship" so wrong? It's wrong when it's simply people with disagreeing viewpoints, but should people in what you call your friend group be subject to hateful & discriminatory comments ever? You as the moderator need to establish that it either IS or it is NOT okay to say or do certain things to somebody based on things they cannot control. Under no circumstances is it acceptable to call someone a "tranny" -- even if you disagree with that person or they act belligerently, you just used language that not only chips away at respect for yourself, but is hostile to people who have done absolutely nothing to you. If you respect people all of races, religions, sex, gender, & age, you would respect that discriminatory language is just plain unacceptable.

Can I tell you something? I was totally embarrassed just last week. Someone I invited to our server was looking at a conversation I had with Char about women & Char used the word "females" in a derogatory way & she was actually upset that someone would talk about women like that. At first I tried to defend Char's use of the word because he genuinely didn't mean to upset anyone, but at the end of the day we both concluded that it's just not okay. It can be very embarrassing when you already consider yourself a considerate person to hear from someone that you said something that upset them, but even if you didn't mean it, you can make that clear & still make an effort to do better by them.

This idea you have about no progress being made in doing something as simple as not tolerating discrimination is unfounded in my opinion & I think you should at least try the same way I've carried this out. You don't have to rule with a stone cold iron fist to point it out when people are being shitheads. You don't have to stop being having a normal conversation to say that they're saying something offensive; you have the wrong idea about what I'm suggesting.

It's about making sure that if people escalate arguments, it doesn't become personal to the point where somebody is being attacked for their race, disability, or age. Everybody deserves to be welcomed & not judged by those things

Almost all the controversy surrounding the use of discriminatory language is not about actual discrimination being done on Nova and more about whether or not it's acceptable to say such a thing and if it makes you racist or not. Ironically, the same people who get very unhappy about the use of these words are the same ones that make fun of certain stereotypes on a daily basis which contradicts their supposed very principle. While you provide a plausible argument against the use of them, it doesn't appear like people use them much if at all lately and it's probably a more pressing problem that people put others under stereotypes and categories then begin the mockery like you did with Drago and other individuals some months back.

If people give respect for all, I'll give them the removal of offensive language.

[Tamicat]

I was just upset, I shouldn't have said anything to begin with. You're right I haven't known you for years now and it's none of my business.

[Punkin]

Well, we’ve established that the aggression isn’t coming from one side for a start so that’s nice.
 
Maturity will not be brought forth by suddenly placing some list of rules in place. I long for nothing more than for everyone to not have to use vulgar and not talk about any harmful subject or drama, censorship will not be the means of achieving that more than all of us agreeing to be above that. As long as trolling remains in people’s minds they’ll find a way to be lowkey about it in a way that doesn’t violate the rules or makes the rules look bad or too strict. I don’t think that’s ever been what Nova’s about, there’s no fake evolution here only actual progress.
 
I won’t die for disallowing a slur of any kind that hurts the concerned people’s feelings but once again I will fight blind censorship, when you’ve all proven to me that you’ve gotten mature enough to care about one other feelings and not inflict emotional harm under the impression that bullying is only a fun pastime thing I’ll believe in your ideals and truly accept that you’re trying to fight discriminatory ideas and not just censoring things for your own personal convenience without all the others or rallying behind some kind of political front .
 
That detail shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things but if you have more to say about the more specific issues I’m all ears, or maybe eyes in this case.

Mado why is "censorship" so wrong? It's wrong when it's simply people with disagreeing viewpoints, but should people in what you call your friend group be subject to hateful & discriminatory comments ever? You as the moderator need to establish that it either IS or it is NOT okay to say or do certain things to somebody based on things they cannot control. Under no circumstances is it acceptable to call someone a "tranny" -- even if you disagree with that person or they act belligerently, you just used language that not only chips away at respect for yourself, but is hostile to people who have done absolutely nothing to you. If you respect people all of races, religions, sex, gender, & age, you would respect that discriminatory language is just plain unacceptable.

Can I tell you something? I was totally embarrassed just last week. Someone I invited to our server was looking at a conversation I had with Char about women & Char used the word "females" in a derogatory way & she was actually upset that someone would talk about women like that. At first I tried to defend Char's use of the word because he genuinely didn't mean to upset anyone, but at the end of the day we both concluded that it's just not okay. It can be very embarrassing when you already consider yourself a considerate person to hear from someone that you said something that upset them, but even if you didn't mean it, you can make that clear & still make an effort to do better by them.

This idea you have about no progress being made in doing something as simple as not tolerating discrimination is unfounded in my opinion & I think you should at least try the same way I've carried this out. You don't have to rule with a stone cold iron fist to point it out when people are being shitheads. You don't have to stop being having a normal conversation to say that they're saying something offensive; you have the wrong idea about what I'm suggesting.

It's about making sure that if people escalate arguments, it doesn't become personal to the point where somebody is being attacked for their race, disability, or age. Everybody deserves to be welcomed & not judged by those things

Almost all the controversy surrounding the use of discriminatory language is not about actual discrimination being done on Nova and more about whether or not it's acceptable to say such a thing and if it makes you racist or not. Ironically, the same people who get very unhappy about the use of these words are the same ones that make fun of certain stereotypes on a daily basis which contradicts their supposed very principle. While you provide a plausible argument against the use of them, it doesn't appear like people use them much if at all lately and it's probably a more pressing problem that people put others under stereotypes and categories then begin the mockery like you did with Drago and other individuals some months back.

If people give respect for all, I'll give them the removal of offensive language.

I assure you that Lunastorm people are 200% willing to compromise, but what's in question is how much you actually mean this or if it's going to happen again & you find it justified so you just let it be. Let's work together to be better Mado. I'm tired of friends falling out because we don't open our hearts

[charizardf1]

Finally we reach the war negotiation table. 

I'll start this off by stating that I'm not going to take Tam's responses seriously at all in this until she stops trying so hard to be hostile towards people and becomes willing to be fair towards people she disagrees with. I'll just give my little tid bit opinion again that I've probably already said a million times already addressing Tamantha. The very first sentence I read automatically says that you discarded whole portions of what Spin has posted. How do you say he isn't being accountable for his actions when he, in detail, laid out how his action has been damaging as well as coming forward and apologizing and saying how he wished to move forward from there. And since we aren't in an active chaotic chatroom for it to be lost the proof is right in that initial post for people to read. I'm not going to go over how messed up the AD situation is since by now I assume it's been handled. You're still going on about Zero but when you pm'd me you literally admitted to saying that you wasn't sure he was the culprit, but for some reason you're being 100% in public. This will probably be discarded since I don't have the proof of it but I just wanted to remind you of that moment for you yourself to remember. How can you throw all the conflict in Nova on us when problems consistently from the last year and a half+ have stemmed literally from just you or Spin. Every conflict has always stemmed from you spazzing out or Spin saying something dumb. From there afterwards it spreads towards the other people in Nova with their own perspective of the situaiton jumping in. So if you want to label conflicting people you shouldn't be bias and also add Mado, link, and whoever else jumps in in that as well. Lastly I'm just going to pinpoint how you insulting Spin out of the blue is not going to help you at all either. It makes you look immature and it'll makes people want to take you even less serious.

That's my response to Tamantha. I'll say the rest later don't have enough time atm.

[Mado]

Finally we reach the war negotiation table. 

I'll start this off by stating that I'm not going to take Tam's responses seriously at all in this until she stops trying so hard to be hostile towards people and becomes willing to be fair towards people she disagrees with. I'll just give my little tid bit opinion again that I've probably already said a million times already addressing Tamantha. The very first sentence I read automatically says that you discarded whole portions of what Spin has posted. How do you say he isn't being accountable for his actions when he, in detail, laid out how his action has been damaging as well as coming forward and apologizing and saying how he wished to move forward from there. And since we aren't in an active chaotic chatroom for it to be lost the proof is right in that initial post for people to read. I'm not going to go over how messed up the AD situation is since by now I assume it's been handled. You're still going on about Zero but when you pm'd me you literally admitted to saying that you wasn't sure he was the culprit, but for some reason you're being 100% in public. This will probably be discarded since I don't have the proof of it but I just wanted to remind you of that moment for you yourself to remember. How can you throw all the conflict in Nova on us when problems consistently from the last year and a half+ have stemmed literally from just you or Spin. Every conflict has always stemmed from you spazzing out or Spin saying something dumb. From there afterwards it spreads towards the other people in Nova with their own perspective of the situaiton jumping in. So if you want to label conflicting people you shouldn't be bias and also add Mado, link, and whoever else jumps in in that as well. Lastly I'm just going to pinpoint how you insulting Spin out of the blue is not going to help you at all either. It makes you look immature and it'll makes people want to take you even less serious.

That's my response to Tamantha. I'll say the rest later don't have enough time atm.

First:

I was just upset, I shouldn't have said anything to begin with. You're right I haven't known you for years now and it's none of my business.

Spin admitting that he's wrong about what he said about Yiffy doesn't instantly make him a clean slate, it still puts a question mark on his motivations and judgement on all manners of things.

If you want to have a fruitful conversation you could begin by not having a tunnel vision fixed at Tam alone.

When it comes to AD, she's not saying things out of nothing. Although he's a chill guy in most circumstances just kinda respectfully interacting with everybody, he does some lowkey stuff and has done it for a long time. When he was hanging out at Nova years back he decided to join Force never to be seen again EXCEPT WHEN HE COMES ALONG WITH THEM TO MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF NOVA. I can't just gloss over that and pretend AD is some kind of saint. Those claims are not coming out of nowhere even if she's handling it poorly being way too confrontational and loud about it. Stop using this futile tactic of making it seem like people are making up stuff when if you're a fair judge you'd notice that the truth is being told about these individuals and how some of them are two faced.

Who said her problem with Zero is specifically the google comment incident in itself and nothing else? That's a very irrelevant point you had no business in stating knowing that her problem with Zero is his entire character and actions in the community not that very specific situation that's only used as one of many supports for her argument against Zero.

It's true that a lot of the problems are seemingly starting with her or Spin but you'd be very unfair to act like some people weren't trying to press their buttons KNOWING FULL WELL that they're going to be reacting intensely to it just because the Internet is some kind of anything goes bullying arena.

Don't compare what I do to what you do or whoever else that's seething at what Tam is doing, I step in to stop people from creating false narratives (which is ironically the very thing you accuse her of), no matter what you say my stance has been completely neutral and I only interfered to stop numbers from ganging on her and whoever else was the victim of mob attacks as well as stopping people when they say incorrect things. All you're doing is tirelessly trying to paint this idea that Tam is trying to win people's sympathy to have things her way and that she's not suffering any kind of pressure from the people you try so hard to prove innocent. I talked with Mitch and Shaun, they share my viewpoint of this.

You know she has her fair share of struggles because of her mental condition and how people have treated her in other places. You should stop throwing a toddler's tantrum about how she's being treated like a favorite kid and acknowledge that she's a person who's not very fortunate falling victim for insensitive bullies from a plagued online culture. She's not exempt from criticism and it's not like she never does things that are inexcusable but you're so focused on the fact that moderation is not punishing her that you can't even see the troubles she's dealing with herself.

Stop being obsessed with whining about her and take a good look at the environment and how it's making her act recklessly and emotionally.

[charizardf1]

Finally we reach the war negotiation table. 

I'll start this off by stating that I'm not going to take Tam's responses seriously at all in this until she stops trying so hard to be hostile towards people and becomes willing to be fair towards people she disagrees with. I'll just give my little tid bit opinion again that I've probably already said a million times already addressing Tamantha. The very first sentence I read automatically says that you discarded whole portions of what Spin has posted. How do you say he isn't being accountable for his actions when he, in detail, laid out how his action has been damaging as well as coming forward and apologizing and saying how he wished to move forward from there. And since we aren't in an active chaotic chatroom for it to be lost the proof is right in that initial post for people to read. I'm not going to go over how messed up the AD situation is since by now I assume it's been handled. You're still going on about Zero but when you pm'd me you literally admitted to saying that you wasn't sure he was the culprit, but for some reason you're being 100% in public. This will probably be discarded since I don't have the proof of it but I just wanted to remind you of that moment for you yourself to remember. How can you throw all the conflict in Nova on us when problems consistently from the last year and a half+ have stemmed literally from just you or Spin. Every conflict has always stemmed from you spazzing out or Spin saying something dumb. From there afterwards it spreads towards the other people in Nova with their own perspective of the situaiton jumping in. So if you want to label conflicting people you shouldn't be bias and also add Mado, link, and whoever else jumps in in that as well. Lastly I'm just going to pinpoint how you insulting Spin out of the blue is not going to help you at all either. It makes you look immature and it'll makes people want to take you even less serious.

That's my response to Tamantha. I'll say the rest later don't have enough time atm.

First:

I was just upset, I shouldn't have said anything to begin with. You're right I haven't known you for years now and it's none of my business.

Spin admitting that he's wrong about what he said about Yiffy doesn't instantly make him a clean slate, it still puts a question mark on his motivations and judgement on all manners of things.

If you want to have a fruitful conversation you could begin by not having a tunnel vision fixed at Tam alone.

When it comes to AD, she's not saying things out of nothing. Although he's a chill guy in most circumstances just kinda respectfully interacting with everybody, he does some lowkey stuff and has done it for a long time. When he was hanging out at Nova years back he decided to join Force never to be seen again EXCEPT WHEN HE COMES ALONG WITH THEM TO MAKE A MOCKERY OUT OF NOVA. I can't just gloss over that and pretend AD is some kind of saint. Those claims are not coming out of nowhere even if she's handling it poorly being way too confrontational and loud about it. Stop using this futile tactic of making it seem like people are making up stuff when if you're a fair judge you'd notice that the truth is being told about these individuals and how some of them are two faced.

Who said her problem with Zero is specifically the google comment incident in itself and nothing else? That's a very irrelevant point you had no business in stating knowing that her problem with Zero is his entire character and actions in the community not that very specific situation that's only used as one of many supports for her argument against Zero.

It's true that a lot of the problems are seemingly starting with her or Spin but you'd be very unfair to act like some people weren't trying to press their buttons KNOWING FULL WELL that they're going to be reacting intensely to it just because the Internet is some kind of anything goes bullying arena.

Don't compare what I do to what you do or whoever else that's seething at what Tam is doing, I step in to stop people from creating false narratives (which is ironically the very thing you accuse her of), no matter what you say my stance has been completely neutral and I only interfered to stop numbers from ganging on her and whoever else was the victim of mob attacks as well as stopping people when they say incorrect things. All you're doing is tirelessly trying to paint this idea that Tam is trying to win people's sympathy to have things her way and that she's not suffering any kind of pressure from the people you try so hard to prove innocent. I talked with Mitch and Shaun, they share my viewpoint of this.

You know she has her fair share of struggles because of her mental condition and how people have treated her in other places. You should stop throwing a toddler's tantrum about how she's being treated like a favorite kid and acknowledge that she's a person who's not very fortunate falling victim for insensitive bullies from a plagued online culture. She's not exempt from criticism and it's not like she never does things that are inexcusable but you're so focused on the fact that moderation is not punishing her that you can't even see the troubles she's dealing with herself.

Stop being obsessed with whining about her and take a good look at the environment and how it's making her act recklessly and emotionally.

This was a response toward Tam's post and herself for the most part but I appreciate your input on it. I never said he was in a clean state at all that wasn't my intent when i said what i said. I was only responding to how she just blatantly said he never addressed his own faults. Personally I've never seen AD do anything wrong toward anybody at all but If you feel like you have then alright I can't say you haven't. Regarding that situation however in which I was there in its entirety, AD did Tam nothing wrong. How he apparently was in the past is totally irrelevant to this current situation. Also stop with this talk of "truths" when you never even attempt to gain real truths in the first place.

I also never said that Tam's whole problem with Zero was just the google situation. I was only using pointing out that specific situation. It is relevant because she uses that very situation as one of her main driving points against him. I also agree that some people will just do certain things to push buttons but that still doesn't change the truth of the main conflicts that go down.

Again this response was just towards Tam's response I'm not sure where you get in that post is targeting you but to respond to that no you're definitely not neutral because if you were you'd be like Mitch whose actually not choosing a side and is taking in things from both ends, which you are definitely not doing. You yourself conjure all these false narratives so I can't really take you serious when you claim that. Yes i do believe Tam is like that, more than likely not purposely, but that is just my general view of her i'm not trying to force that on other people. Also I'm not throwing any tantrums I've stayed chillin on this. I merely just address things I disagree with and that's all I do. Also I am not saying that you should punish her at all, again, never said this. All I'm wishing is for people to stop letting her slide bc of her past/mental state and try to help inform her, just like with link, so she can understand more things. 

I've literally fought Tamantha for over a year and through all that time learnt a whole lot from each clash so I do indeed understand her struggles. This is why it's much better for her to understand than just be like "hey she's mental and had a tragic backstory let's let her slide ok?" No, in my opinion that's only setting herself for further failure in the future. She will just continue to be like this and get into more and more of these types of situations if these types of things are allowed. If she is approached by the people she likes more and told with honesty about situations enough by both her friends and foes she might be moreso willing to accept the information and be able to move forward with that information to negate the chance of her spazzing out on said person anymore. 

It's actually pretty understandable to as to why i would be whining in the first place. I've had to swallow myself so much and apologize for certain things I've never even done just in attempt to satisfy her and the chat. I dislike a lot of the ways Tam has approached situations regarding what she apparently disliked out of me. All the times she demonizes me because of a single thing but since she's mental and had a tragic backstory it means that anything she says is a lot more plausible. You like to blame the chat for her reckless flailing but you act like she never just does it out of the blue. You never entertain the fact that hey maybe tam is starting a lot of this shizz. I've admitted to every instance where I would initiate since it I am not scared nor do I care how people see me. But hey people can believe what they can believe it doesn't really upset me since from both our ends all we post are words so it's always up to what people think happened.

[Tamicat]

I'll start this off by stating that I'm not going to take Tam's responses seriously at all.... .... You're still going on about Zero but when you pm'd me you literally admitted to saying that you wasn't sure he was the culprit, but for some reason you're being 100% in public. This will probably be discarded since I don't have the proof of it but I just wanted to remind you of that moment for you yourself to remember.

That's my response to Tamantha. I'll say the rest later don't have enough time atm.

I wasn't trying to put Zero on trial again or AD. A big reason to let things go and be peaceful was because me and Zero had friends in common but he's gone back on every word or goodwill he's offered me and I've lost most reasons to be civil or gloss over these things anymore. You can believe what you want at this point char but it's been a blatant fact to me with how he barely even tries to hide it or still instigates shit when he's bored with me even to this day. It's a fantasy world if you think he's genuinely regretful of anything he did or problems he caused for anyone involved, including his own friends.

You're right that I can't be 100% about Zero especially when he'll often lie about things for a laugh and obviously he'll cover anything up that paints him in a light he dislikes. He doesn't mind being portrayed as an asshole but he also wants to be the good guy that's just above this too and he's pretty good at manipulating social situations around himself. That much is true and to me he just has the motivation, resources and drive to do it. You guys were much more emotional in defending him than logical I think. Everyone was completely happy to throw kitty under the bus for things with no evidence but you refused to believe Zero was even capable of the things I said.

AD actually messaged me about this and he's hard to argue with but I'm still not confident enough to trust him. Maybe he was just trying to reason with me or be polite but he did concede that getting involved in a lot of my affairs with others and taking the other side put himself at ends with me while I also conceded he isn't responsible for his friends behaviours or choices - We didn't really come to a trusting understanding with one another but I think it was left on a note where we'd probably try not to drag one another into things or fan the flames. Really it was just an immature response from me directed at spin - it wasn't supposed to be about them anymore.

I'm not interested in having a deep conversation about Spin anymore or trying to convince you that Zero is bad. I think most of you know the truth of your own interactions with me by this point and you can accept or deny whatever you want. I legitimately was just upset and wrote some mean stuff about Spin when I probably shouldn't be engaging with him at all anymore. Just so happens a lot of my words and feelings with spin happen to include other people that have led me to the stance I now I have with him. I like to say things in a public space because I feel like it's more honest but that's probably a mistake when it dredges up issues with more people. I've had issues with you too probably more than any one else in chat Char so I guess it's only natural you wouldn't take my side on things. A lot of these conflicts arose because you or others like you started it and kept it going with me in the first place so I think in a way you're equally responsible for keeping me going this long char or purposely getting me to continue down my warpath on things for so long. At the very least I don't think it's fair to blame me for recent events when I've made efforts to cause less problems.

I've made an effort to distance myself from things like this now and rah kinda agrees it is better - it's not my responsibility to sway Mado's opinion or figure our Nova's problems. A lot of this is far beyond me and out of my influence anyway. I honestly don't fully even comprehend what happened to make Talon, AD and you, of all people, turn to a hostile stance with Mado but I don't think that was my fault.

I'm only responding to you char. I'm not gonna tell mado how to handle his friends or decipher what spin is trying to do. You guys probably have some idea that I'm in my own secret chat like you guys are in Luna storm talking with yiffy or mado or w/e but I'm really not. I'm a lot more out of the loop on things than you might realize. I don't think Nova has been dead either, it is quieter with many of it's regulars away but it still has more going on than half the chatango chats. Often I'd rather just sit and be alone than organize some new place or desperately claw at keeping people around me. I think you should probably understand that much about me being at odds with me for years now char. I'm volatile, defensive and paranoid but I know that you understand I'm not some mastermind pulling strings or manipulating people. I can't even keep up normal relations with people I like when everything is fine for very long let alone force people to see things my way.

I'd be really surprised if you had moved away from Nova too over this or decided the inappropriate language and lack of moderation to keep the n word in check actually made you distance yourself from Mado. You may not believe me but I really don't have any ulterior motives here and whatever happens between spin and mado or spin and Yiffy I don't want to be part of it or feel responsible for it anymore.

[charizardf1]

I wasn't trying to put Zero on trial again or AD. A big reason to let things go and be peaceful was because me and Zero had friends in common but he's gone back on every word or goodwill he's offered me and I've lost most reasons to be civil or gloss over these things anymore. You can believe what you want at this point char but it's been a blatant fact to me with how he barely even tries to hide it or still instigates shit when he's bored with me even to this day. It's a fantasy world if you think he's genuinely regretful of anything he did or problems he caused for anyone involved, including his own friends.

You're right that I can't be 100% about Zero especially when he'll often lie about things for a laugh and obviously he'll cover anything up that paints him in a light he dislikes. He doesn't mind being portrayed as an asshole but he also wants to be the good guy that's just above this too and he's pretty good at manipulating social situations around himself. That much is true and to me he just has the motivation, resources and drive to do it. You guys were much more emotional in defending him than logical I think. Everyone was completely happy to throw kitty under the bus for things with no evidence but you refused to believe Zero was even capable of the things I said.

AD actually messaged me about this and he's hard to argue with but I'm still not confident enough to trust him. Maybe he was just trying to reason with me or be polite but he did concede that getting involved in a lot of my affairs with others and taking the other side put himself at ends with me while I also conceded he isn't responsible for his friends behaviours or choices - We didn't really come to a trusting understanding with one another but I think it was left on a note where we'd probably try not to drag one another into things or fan the flames. Really it was just an immature response from me directed at spin - it wasn't supposed to be about them anymore.

I'm not interested in having a deep conversation about Spin anymore or trying to convince you that Zero is bad. I think most of you know the truth of your own interactions with me by this point and you can accept or deny whatever you want. I legitimately was just upset and wrote some mean stuff about Spin when I probably shouldn't be engaging with him at all anymore. Just so happens a lot of my words and feelings with spin happen to include other people that have led me to the stance I now I have with him. I like to say things in a public space because I feel like it's more honest but that's probably a mistake when it dredges up issues with more people. I've had issues with you too probably more than any one else in chat Char so I guess it's only natural you wouldn't take my side on things. A lot of these conflicts arose because you or others like you started it and kept it going with me in the first place so I think in a way you're equally responsible for keeping me going this long char or purposely getting me to continue down my warpath on things for so long. At the very least I don't think it's fair to blame me for recent events when I've made efforts to cause less problems.

I've made an effort to distance myself from things like this now and rah kinda agrees it is better - it's not my responsibility to sway Mado's opinion or figure our Nova's problems. A lot of this is far beyond me and out of my influence anyway. I honestly don't fully even comprehend what happened to make Talon, AD and you, of all people, turn to a hostile stance with Mado but I don't think that was my fault.

I'm only responding to you char. I'm not gonna tell mado how to handle his friends or decipher what spin is trying to do. You guys probably have some idea that I'm in my own secret chat like you guys are in Luna storm talking with yiffy or mado or w/e but I'm really not. I'm a lot more out of the loop on things than you might realize. I don't think Nova has been dead either, it is quieter with many of it's regulars away but it still has more going on than half the chatango chats. Often I'd rather just sit and be alone than organize some new place or desperately claw at keeping people around me. I think you should probably understand that much about me being at odds with me for years now char. I'm volatile, defensive and paranoid but I know that you understand I'm not some mastermind pulling strings or manipulating people. I can't even keep up normal relations with people I like when everything is fine for very long let alone force people to see things my way.

I'd be really surprised if you had moved away from Nova too over this or decided the inappropriate language and lack of moderation to keep the n word in check actually made you distance yourself from Mado. You may not believe me but I really don't have any ulterior motives here and whatever happens between spin and mado or spin and Yiffy I don't want to be part of it or feel responsible for it anymore.

Well I never said Zero was an completely innocent person. I know he's come at you with the intent to troll and meme and he can be an asshole never denied any of that. The only thing that's being denied is how you came at him when you continue to spread that he was the one that was doing it. It's fair to assume he possibly did it and leave it at that but you went above and beyond to try and convince people that he did the thing. You tried to paint AD in the same sense trying to put in people's head that he's a snake when he means so harm to anyone. Of course we were emotional about that scenario because it was slander and you were trying to make his name bad. This isn't even about taking a side this is about informing people of the truth of the situation. You have parts of your story that's true and your opposing side does as well. Utilize both halves information to create a resolution point. 

Yes i'm responsible for a lot of our interactions I've never claimed to be innocent. My only problem with you is that you put too much on the opposing end and victimize yourself so much. When somebody does you wrong once you start creating so many non existent narratives to follow suit and you get a crowd that naturally sympathizes with you when they don't know the full of the story. 

Nobody is blaming you for recent events you're just being used as one of the examples in comparison of how we're getting treated yet people like link and yourself can get bys just because of certain circumstances. Also you're right I don't think you are some mastermind. Just like with Spin things just sorta gravitate around you since your a main centerpoint in these types of things. 

I'm not staying away for the same reasons Spin is. the people of Lunastorm are all individuals with their own agenda we are not a gang gang group that hives with the same rules and regulations. My reason for keeping my distance from Nova is to keep a peace of mind for myself and get away from people who refuse to respect and listen to the things I want to say as well as stay away from all the slanderous things being said of me. I shouldn't be around that type of energy especially since I'm deploying I don't need all this weighing down on my mentality. 

Again in these events aren't about you specifically. From my understanding at least you're completely irrelevant to the yiffy situation. You are being mentioned just because you're one of the examples we wished to address about how ppl like talon, me, ect. get treated vs you. link, and such.

[charizardf1]

wait wtf did one of my posts not stick?.....i had a whole response towards mado's post brb

[charizardf1]

I’m glad you’ve changed your mind about how you view Neferpitou. It wasn’t pleasant to see you take such an extreme stance with him given the history you know of him with the people of Nova, but as you now don’t believe such things I think we can leave that behind us entirely.
 
I also won’t bear a grudge against you for what you said about my semi-NEET state in the past few months or year. However, I have a bit of a problem when it comes to your general approach towards these things. Throughout the years you’ve stayed on Nova you’ve given me conflicting signs about what you want to be as a person. You have this very suspicious cycle of behaving in an unreasonable manner then reverting to hoping to evolve and better your mistakes. I really don’t know if I can just have your word for it when you say you had a change of heart about these things, not to be prideful or because I’m any position to lay judgement on you but because you’ve gone back on what you said a lot of times and gone back to having a hostile almost snobbish approach towards things after being subjected to enough pressure and negativity. I think those times really are what’s going to test your metal so when that happens again, and hopefully it never does, I’ll see if you really mean all you said here.
 
Now this is the part where I admit to what I’m doing wrong and come transparent about how I feel. When I group people together as “Twitter drones” it’s a huge exaggeration on my part, almost like some kind of automatic defense mechanism, it’s not right for me to say that about people as if they’re operating as some sort of hivemind. The increasing pressure on me in my recent life has ruined my ability to be tolerant and patient with opposing views, especially when I believe they’re harming other individuals by being so, but it’s a rather hostile and uncivilized approach to this so I’ll apologize for that much.
 
That however also didn’t come without a reason, the people you’ve mentioned use a pretty dismissive and rude way to deal with different views, much more so when it comes to controversial subjects like something ethical and political. With such extreme statements on their part I and many others become forced to respond in a manner of equal hostility and dismissiveness, because if the debate is going to amount to nothing one’s gotta at least not make it seem like they’re in agreement with the people who’re “dehumanizing” them, in your own words. It’s not the right way to deal with it, not justifiable by any means but the other side is not completely innocent and you’d be fair to not ignore that fact. I shouldn’t be dehumanized so aggressively for giving my opinion on BLM, circumcision, abortion, transgender people and things of that nature.
 
I’ve never tolerated discriminatory comments of any kind, from the smallest things like bullying someone for not being the brightest or the fastest thinker to downright awful things like actual racism or approval of violence against a certain group or category of people.
 
The reason I’m so headstrong on allowing racial slurs is not because I approve of racism, it’s more in protest against ideologies with contradicting beliefs and actions. As person you who does not approve of discrimination you should not be one to make an individual the target of your sarcasm and mockery, you should also not be judging people so quickly based on their belief on a certain controversial subject or even a less sensitive one that’s social or the like. If you make fun of people who like a certain form of media or fiction, people on the autism spectrum or people who don’t quite have their life together then claim to want justice for a certain race or ethnicity, that looks insincere to me and I’m not going to rally behind you blindly, if you convince me that you’re a good person I’ll be able to acknowledge that you mean well and work with you to stop hatred of all kinds. Otherwise I’m strongly opposed to insincere censorship and control.
 
When I look at problems between people in Nova, I don’t view them in a vacuum, I take care to consider people’s history, overall character and what led them to have the attitude they have now. That includes, you, Tam, Char, Talon as well as Chris. Chris is undeniably a very hostile person when someone gets on his bad side or displays a behavior he deems unacceptable, I don’t approve of or tolerate his aggressive approach to this and have never claimed that he was right to say what he says about you and others. However when it comes to me calling out Talon, Char and whoever but not Chris, it’s not without a reason and it’s not because he’s taking my side. It’s because I know he’s acting in protest to what’s being done, even if it’s over the top, and doesn’t have ill intentions. He’s angered and acting out of his reason because of that. Talon on the other hand often proclaims that he’s not invested in Nova much (which is a whole debate for itself given how he gives different answers about that thing), often times he’d say things like “why do you take this seriously?” or “lmao” at things that people are genuinely hurting at, I should not be blamed when a person gives the impression that he wants to cause mischief because he couldn’t care much about how invested people aside from himself are, I should have the right to think their judgement in matters that are serious is lousy and unreliable until he fixes his attitude towards this kind of things. He and Chris are doing different things although it seems the same on the surface, and for the record both has been my friends for the same number of years and I have no reason to prefer one over the other. I’m just acting in accord to what I believe to be their intentions behind what they say and I have to prioritize facing off with Talon over doing that with Chris because Talon’s approach spreads more malice and causes more harm, when all’s settled when it comes to that or at least temporarily I could turn to Chris and talk to him about how he’s being needlessly vulgar and aggressive.
 
Banning is not the solution I look at first and it takes a person to ridicule my requests as a moderator and being uncooperative for a while for me to take that step and ban them for a short or long time. Talon has been banned many times over not by me but by the other moderators in Nova for this thing. I wasn’t being unfair to him. Chris listened to my request and stopped what he’s doing after a short amount of tries.
 
And just the same when it comes to Tam, I have to take into consideration the life she’s lived in general and on chatango that made her the person she is. It’s something you cannot ignore if you’re trying to be completely fair, Nova doesn’t operate on some kinda court law, we’re a group of friends trying to understand each other and help each other overcome our weaknesses, I’ve heard you guys preach that a few times and I think it’s applicable to the likes of Tam. Her mental state as well as the bullying she’s been subjected to in various instances could very well be what made her a not very trusting and forgiving person when it comes to people who hurt her. It’s unfair to expect her to just pull herself together without any kind of support or patience. It’s not special treatment, this kind of thing is needed if we don’t want to tear our community apart, tolerance goes a long way. I don’t know if you guys remember but I’ve given something to similar to each of you in the times you were having it rough and started acting in such a way that goes against your usual happy nature.
 
I don’t want Nova to be a courtroom, I don't want to hold you guys accountable and responsible for things as if you were criminals. I want to be able to talk to you closely and informally, a heart to heart conversation of sincerity and understanding. There’s instances in which a firm disciplinary action is in order but I strongly believe against using cold cut rules for that kind of thing. IThat’s not what made people like Nova and it’ll never work for us.
 
I don’t want to come off as arrogant or too prideful to reach out for handshake but I’ve been hurt many times because of how some of you turn colors on me and until I’ve felt genuine incentive from you to be honest and friendly again I think I’ll continue to keep my guard up.
 
I appreciate taking the time to discuss this with me though.

The problem with how you're viewing Spin is that you're stuck in the past and not taking into account his progression as a person. Every human being has faults within themselves. What you're saying right now is that in itself. Spin has a weakpoint in addressing situations without it creating a huge uproar. You have to take into account how he grew up. Spin grew up a degenerate and used to be such an ass and also was alone lacking social skills. It was until he finally started getting out in the world and got that job and such he started to realize and grow as a person. When it comes to that very thing where he fucks up and then returns and apologizes it's called reflecting. It's not like he's doing the same exact thing everytime. Recently every problem Spin had was a different scenario and from each of those he came out learning from it. Spin will never be a perfect person same with everyone else. He will indeed more than likely fuck up again but you can't hold that against him because unlike a lot of people he actually reflects on his actions and takes into consideration what people say about him. 

I wish to understand how exactly I'm being rude or dismissive at all. I've never insulted, never disrespected, gave people the room to say what they needed to say, I've listened, responded accordingly. Please give me an actual example of this because I really can't remember. I really don't understand how you read everything I do with hostile intent. When I'm asking a question that's all it is, a question. I simply just want to better understand your end of the spectrum as well as inform you things from my end. I'm not being sarcastic nor am i trying to one up you, this isn't a competition. This isn't just some win/lose situation it's about reaching a mutual understanding and seeing how to resolve things going forward with all the compiled knowledge. 

I, myself am conflicted on the whole discrimination thing myself. I opened my eyes upon seeing the situation with Redon as well as a Luna member freaking out over a word i never knew was even discriminary. I grew up in environments that never once flinched at the word female. People around me used it all the time even woman themselves all say it. People in the army literally use the word in briefs. It was literally just a synonym for women/girl to me and people around me. Women in modern times are even starting to not flinch at the word bitch and its dictionary term is female dog so that really confuses me. I've come to the conclusion that it all just depends on the environment you're from in which certain terms can be offensive. I've always lived by the principle of situational context where a situation can be either good or bad depending on the vibe of the group or usage of words. So really if somebody on the minority have a problem with how a word is used they are technically in the wrong...in a sense? idk.

You can't just label somebody off of just their those things because it's just your collective viewpoint. You have to also become open and discuss with that person in the present about what their intent is and listen to what they have to say. People are not as easy to read as you are putting it. You can't just gauge a person off of your personal experience. Sure you can use it as a base point but you have to expand on that and gain clarity by speaking with the person and absorbing what is being said. You, yourself are spreading malice by assuming and jumping the gun that malice is in play. If you were to clarify the situation beforehand on a lot of these situations nothing would ever occur in the first place. 

How you handled Talon was unfair all he did was give out his perspective on matters in the most harmless way yet link was extremely hostile and you let him slide because you understand his situation. You banned Talon for the soul reason of him potentially spreading more malice but link was deliberately spreading direct malice so that reason seems flawed to me. When talon says things like "lmao" I'm pretty sure it's a hint towards him saying you're saying something untruthful. I know i do it whenever i read something ridiculous. It by no means is a sign on mischief just because he types those things. 

I'm not turning colors on anyone. All I wanted was to be understood as well as understand more about the other end but instead I just get swagged. Since I don't get that respect it's best i stay way for my own stability because I don't want this energy anymore especially while I'm currently in deployment status. I'm not on this "I hate mado so let's destroy him" type of thing if that's what you're thinking. It's like for anyone against you you put up this automatic shield as if we're about to attack you then preemptively interpret anything we say as if we're out to get you but i assure you that's not the case. All we want is for you to calm down and stop panicing upon every move somebody who wishes to address something with you. You can't solve things alone you and nobody else in the world is that smart at all. A good community is a group effort not a single person's. The chat as a whole has conditioned you for all these years directly coming to you with their personal problems making you believe that it's your job to handle everything so it's understandable that you've developed to this point where you're a lot more headstrong about your sole judgement. 

I typed this response so much better earlier idk why it didn't post. Typing so much again is such a chore....

[Punkin]

I have a problem with internalizing my emotions, so I'm sorry if this all sounds dreadfully over the top. Mado, it doesn't mean much to you at this point, but I'm very hurt by how all of this turned out. You think I'm being insincere when I say I miss the friendship I shared with you & Tam, but you two are truly invaluable to me. I can't continue to try & persuade either of you anymore or change the way you feel, so I concede.

My perspective really changed on so many things in pursuit of the closeness I once shared with you & Tam. I don't remember what I used to be like or how I used to act when you guys liked me, but I'm sorry that changed & I'm sorry I don't have the perspective you guys have to be able to see that. It really does just absolutely beat me the fuck up you guys

I almost always ask the question "What's wrong with me?"; what could I have done to be suitable enough to even be considered an acquaintance in your eyes at this point? Have I really become a monster? I draw blanks. I don't know. I don't try to be the person you guys dislike so much. Even now as I confess my misguidance I can't persuade you that I want things to be better. 

It's really embarrassing to a third-party, but to say I love you guys really hits the nail on the head & there's just no other way to describe it. I changed so many times for the better because my friends in Nova made me a better person by forcing my humility & changing my perspective from a selfish one to one that better suits the bigger image

If you really truly just want to be away from me, then I accept this outcome & have no choice; & if that isn't the case then you'll take it upon yourself & all I can do is wait for days & weeks. It only ever causes divide when I do this & desperately try to pick up the pieces, so I give up

[marjorie]

meme thread

[Mado]

I’m not saying Spin has no room for growth and that I know with utmost certainty that he’ll never be a better person, that’s a pretty arrogant and antagonistic sentiment that I don’t dare pass as a judgement on anyone. Redemption is always possible. He could very well one day turn into a person I look up to and hope to learn something from. But even though I believe it’s possible for him the current attitude he’s taking towards things currently and for the duration of his stay on Nova doesn’t tell me that he’s really trying to better himself.
 
This scenario repeated so many times. Not once, twice or a few times more. He’d utter the most sincere and loving sounding words I could almost tear up reading them but then give it a couple months or three and he’ll start being all negative, arrogant and selfish denouncing friendship over the smallest thing and giving people ridiculous ultimatums over things like being unable to admit that he got something wrong about a game or a political subject or because Tam isn’t returning his clingy love. It takes so little to make him wreck down all he’s built and just leave everything behind to try his luck at another chat or serve, only to inevitably come back here and do the same thing again. And it messed me up because I’m worried that he might be having thoughts of harming himself over what’s happening or that he’s really hurting but lately I’ve been feeling that less and he really just flows with whatever current is flowing at the time. He changes so much at his convenience going back on promises and forgetting all goals he set for himself over things that should not even make someone react so negatively. I don’t hate him but this cycle is causing me harm and I think Tam probably feels the same too, I don’t know if I can keep putting up with it instead of removing him from the archive of my memories until he decides to get himself straight and prove it to me in some way. It’s never about the specific situation he’s being all troublesome about but the general picture he gives to himself as a person in my perspective.
 
I’m sorry that you thought I meant you when I said rude and dismissive but that was specifically meant for AD, Mario and Talon getting very self righteous about subjects that, in their perspective, should be a given and that anybody who dares entertain a different thought is an immoral demon.
 
Talon doesn’t just give his opinion, he talks in an abrupt and deliberately anger provoking manner if he believes strong in anything. I don’t think it’s just honesty, it’s very clear from the way he types that he’s trying to make the other person question their very self worth.
 
For the hundredth time. No, and a million other no. I don’t approve of what Chris is doing, not in the least. It’s just that taking a firm stance is not the first thing I go to when trying to get people to not be harmful, I didn’t go from 0 to 100 with Talon, you should know full well how much patience I had for him when no one else could put up with him for a second. I’m acting this way towards him now and even banning him at times because I’ve noticed that he’s getting increasingly extreme about his opinions and how he judges people and I don’t feel like dealing with him calmly would be met with a positive response from him like it still does with Chris. Chris stops when I talk to him seriously enough but Talon hits me with that “you’re not the boss of me” or “why so angery” stuff. My approach is in relative proportion to the severity of the act and intentions, to the best of my ability to be fair and properly read the situation.
 
When it comes to Char, he’s not a big problem to me like the more out of control cases but it doesn’t set well with me that he doesn’t have a consistent history of taking either the indifferent bystander stance or being strongly involved in the event. When you observe things for your amusement or choose to opt out of dealing with them one time then become a prominent debate participant in another it just really puts your motivation as to whether you want to really correct things or only defend people that matter to you into question. I know you’re unhappy that I doubt your ability to judge things without bias but I don’t know if you can blame for believing your will is not the most justice driven when you just let things happen at other times then get involved with all your being when it matters to you.
 
I’m sorry these days were what you had to deal with before deployment, sensei, but because of the way you guys deal with things recently I just don’t feel like we get along as much as we used to and I really don’t wanna chase some kind of illusion of making peace with all of you without laying out the truth of how I feel about your recent development of character and decisions.

[Mado]

And for the record, I'm not at all trying to demonize AD and Mario by saying what I said. I don't know if they feel the same about me but I consider them to be friends of mine despite believing they take a bit of an unfair dismissive stance on certain subjects but really I don't want AD to feel like I'm trying to slander his name and make him seem like some kinda lowkey troll mastermind, I just had to say the truth of how I feel he's not exactly being very considerate to the other side of the table at times.

[cult]

[charizardf1]

I’m not saying Spin has no room for growth and that I know with utmost certainty that he’ll never be a better person, that’s a pretty arrogant and antagonistic sentiment that I don’t dare pass as a judgement on anyone. Redemption is always possible. He could very well one day turn into a person I look up to and hope to learn something from. But even though I believe it’s possible for him the current attitude he’s taking towards things currently and for the duration of his stay on Nova doesn’t tell me that he’s really trying to better himself.
 
This scenario repeated so many times. Not once, twice or a few times more. He’d utter the most sincere and loving sounding words I could almost tear up reading them but then give it a couple months or three and he’ll start being all negative, arrogant and selfish denouncing friendship over the smallest thing and giving people ridiculous ultimatums over things like being unable to admit that he got something wrong about a game or a political subject or because Tam isn’t returning his clingy love. It takes so little to make him wreck down all he’s built and just leave everything behind to try his luck at another chat or serve, only to inevitably come back here and do the same thing again. And it messed me up because I’m worried that he might be having thoughts of harming himself over what’s happening or that he’s really hurting but lately I’ve been feeling that less and he really just flows with whatever current is flowing at the time. He changes so much at his convenience going back on promises and forgetting all goals he set for himself over things that should not even make someone react so negatively. I don’t hate him but this cycle is causing me harm and I think Tam probably feels the same too, I don’t know if I can keep putting up with it instead of removing him from the archive of my memories until he decides to get himself straight and prove it to me in some way. It’s never about the specific situation he’s being all troublesome about but the general picture he gives to himself as a person in my perspective.
 
I’m sorry that you thought I meant you when I said rude and dismissive but that was specifically meant for AD, Mario and Talon getting very self righteous about subjects that, in their perspective, should be a given and that anybody who dares entertain a different thought is an immoral demon.
 
Talon doesn’t just give his opinion, he talks in an abrupt and deliberately anger provoking manner if he believes strong in anything. I don’t think it’s just honesty, it’s very clear from the way he types that he’s trying to make the other person question their very self worth.
 
For the hundredth time. No, and a million other no. I don’t approve of what Chris is doing, not in the least. It’s just that taking a firm stance is not the first thing I go to when trying to get people to not be harmful, I didn’t go from 0 to 100 with Talon, you should know full well how much patience I had for him when no one else could put up with him for a second. I’m acting this way towards him now and even banning him at times because I’ve noticed that he’s getting increasingly extreme about his opinions and how he judges people and I don’t feel like dealing with him calmly would be met with a positive response from him like it still does with Chris. Chris stops when I talk to him seriously enough but Talon hits me with that “you’re not the boss of me” or “why so angery” stuff. My approach is in relative proportion to the severity of the act and intentions, to the best of my ability to be fair and properly read the situation.
 
When it comes to Char, he’s not a big problem to me like the more out of control cases but it doesn’t set well with me that he doesn’t have a consistent history of taking either the indifferent bystander stance or being strongly involved in the event. When you observe things for your amusement or choose to opt out of dealing with them one time then become a prominent debate participant in another it just really puts your motivation as to whether you want to really correct things or only defend people that matter to you into question. I know you’re unhappy that I doubt your ability to judge things without bias but I don’t know if you can blame for believing your will is not the most justice driven when you just let things happen at other times then get involved with all your being when it matters to you.
 
I’m sorry these days were what you had to deal with before deployment, sensei, but because of the way you guys deal with things recently I just don’t feel like we get along as much as we used to and I really don’t wanna chase some kind of illusion of making peace with all of you without laying out the truth of how I feel about your recent development of character and decisions.

If you really compared upon how Spin conducts himself then and now then it's pretty obvious how drastically changed he is. Spin of the past wouldn't try to reason like this at all he'd just say fuck all us for a day straight, tell us how wrong you are and dip for awhile but he didn't do that. He actually reflects on his actions and gives people the chance to speak and takes into consideration everyone's words. To me it just seems like you're focusing on the negative and not paying attention to the growth end of his approaches. Yes he did indeed fuck up but is he still going around being chaotic and being disrespectful? You, Link, Tam, and whoever else I don't really care if you personally don't wish to stay friends with him because you dislike the flaws of his character but at least acknowledge that he isn't the person he used to be and is at least for this situation going about this situation the most maturely he's ever done.

By situation I mean I mean the core problem not his repeated pattern. His pattern is a part of his personal flaws that he has to improve on and to me he has gotten better with it each time. Again I must emphasis that he is a human being and it's inevitable that he will have moments where he's going to fuck up but that's not where you should focus your attention it's about how it's handled afterwards. Spin overtime talks about the situation a lot and a lot of people approached Spin and discussed with him in a non hostile manner how he was wrong and try to understand yiffy's stance as well as how his actions effected the environment. He listened, he took it in, he thought about it, embraced his faults and decided to try to make things right. I understand you already understand these basic principles but ima just lay it out once again that nobody's perfect. You, yourself have more than likely done lots of messed up stuff in your lifetime where you had to reflect and improve upon yourself. Done stuff that has made other people turn coat on you and made you think about how you can make things better. 

Again I'm not going to try to sway your personal view on others and i know you laid out a scenario in which you have believed AD was swagging Nova and such, but i still don't believe at least in recent events that AD has done Tam any wrong. Like I mentioned before you can't just jump the gun on people based upon your own analysis, you have to speak with them and gain better clarity. How do you know the feelings being put in the words that people are typing? How can you just automatically label intent without properly communicating with them first? Why do you feel like you can just tell Talon what he is doing as if you know exactly how he is as a person? It's definitely not clear as day from just reading texts alone to see the context of a situation. 

I'm not saying you approve of Link I'm just saying that it is definitely unfair to look at Link, say he's good for now because you understand his circumstance, then look at talon who hasn't given any type of direct hostile comment and say "Yep that's the one I should ban." I understand you have yourself set that Talon is some kind of dependent follower of trends kind of guy or whatever but at least acknowledge that he is not raising any real signs of red flags like people like Link and Tam does on occasion. I don't know Talon's intent on his comments myself and I'm not going to pretend he doesn't go in with the intent for being an asshole but regardless of that even if he is being one it's irrelevant because y'all are also showing immature qualities on the same if not greater levels than Talon is. I'd definitely understand putting him out though if he was the only one apparently being an ass but this isn't the case at all. This all falls in line with what i said before which is have a real conversation before you jump these conclusions.

Same thing with me as well. My history and my inconsistent demeanor does not matter at all nor does it relate to the situationa t hand. Can you use it as a base, sure, but you need to focus on the present and see where i am before you finalize your claims. It's really easy to just simply come and ask me directly about your uncertainties. "hey I think he's more than likely looking at this situation like this and is trying to do this. Let me see if I'm right by approaching him and understand what his stance is this time." And you can choose to do it however you're most comfortable and will be the most stable. Forums, pms, discord, wherever you think it would be the best place you think would be best to gain your clarity. I am highly aware of my bouncy sense of justice but that doesn't mean you're allowed to just choose for me how you think I'm trying to handle a situation and such. Again you and nobody else in the world is that smart. 

We can say the same thing about you that how you're handling it also extends the conflictions of these problems. We are not the issue, it's the group in its entirety. We all fail to properly communicate with each other and it causes a domino effect where some of us believe we're just right and pointing fingers and such when we shouldn't even be doing that. Nova should just drop the whole "hey im the hero" and just focus on the "let's gain more knowledge on everyone and conclude how we really all are as individuals". I don't care about being some hero and I'm not here with the main intent on defending anybody. I just want to be understood and want people to learn how to better understand each other.

[Mado]

No matter what you think of Spin's character and if he has some hidden qualities or not I don't think it's even deniable that he causes stress and emotional struggles to others for motivations that only benefit or have to do with himself and his ego. I guess it doesn't matter to you what kind of personal relationship I have with Spin so I'll just tell him that I'm not just gonna open a blank page after this many betrayals and I'd like to see him work to earn his respect back if he actually cares, otherwise I'll just go on with how I've been feeling towards him.

You make it sound as though everybody is willing to open their heart to you the moment you approach them about something and just really tell you the truth for what it is. When I did try to get confirmation about this kind of things before all I got in response is the assumption that I'm trying to pin something on the individual in question or a leave me alone idc response.

This conversation will remain here to reference in the future so I can really see if you guys are right about all things we've discussed or not. Hopefully there'll be some actual attempts at teamwork and that this isn't all talk with no substance.

Nobody is playing the hero, we're just all entitled to our perspective on the thing and expectedly so because of how little everyone wanted to work together on the contrary of what you guys suddenly began proposing. If nobody can be honest and lend a hand to me I'm not gonna wait for shit to collapse on itself and count on my own investigations to understand things.

No need for more examples of what happened or didn't happen at this point, just look forward and really show that you're hoping to better things by taking and giving. I really hope this revolt wasn't just empty talk.

[charizardf1]

So you think nobody else does this? Tam did the same things and you’re not holding her to these standards when she causes those same things. Also thing is it’s a lot better to listen to potential lies then just assume and put yourself in a worse situation by acting like you just know. Look at where you are right now. The main reason people are having problems with you has consistently been because you just jump the gun on us and just start labeling so obviously your approach is very ineffective don’t you think?

Also keep in mind that this is a thing for everyone meaning yourself. I haven’t seen you admit to much and maybe my imagination is playing me but it still feels like to me that you barely feel at fault for much. You yourself still have to learn about teamwork too which means when the time comes when somebody is trying to explain things to you you’ll need to open yourself to the idea being presented to you and entertain it before you immediately discard. Regardless of how you see the situation it’s always the worse option to just rely on your own thoughts because it will always ever end badly for you.

This whole conversation is a reference for everyone not just for us. It really feels like only we have put our all to lay down how things have went wrong on our end and what we wish to do to improve but what about your end? So far all I’m reading is you shaking your head and being like “I’m looking forward to it.” As if we’re the only ones needing improvement. So I wish to gain a better understanding if I’m wrong on this and wish to clarify how exactly you yourself wish to move forward and improve.

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